anechoic:  everyone ready?
       d jean:  sure
   .sonorous.:  hi, yes!
        Caleb:  hi, all set
     anechoic:  ok so this is not a guided discussion but one that comes about by whoever is participating...
       d jean:  then i will apologize in advance, haven't read the entire chapter...
       d jean:  :)
     anechoic:  so the chapter we'll be discussing is chapter 2 of the Microsound book by Curtis Roads (just stating the obvious)
        Caleb:  the math seemed a little heavy this time around
     anechoic:  in what way?
        Caleb:  not sure how much I got from Gabor
     anechoic:  the math described Xenakis's distribution of grains on a screen...which math of Gabor?
     anechoic:  cite a page number?
        Caleb:  the gabor matrix, 57ff
     anechoic:  ah ok
        Caleb:  i did better with the xenakis...
     anechoic:  what specifically was confusing?
        Caleb:  at least i could imagine the screens.
        Caleb:  I've never been especially good at math...
        Caleb:  and all the math formulas and symbols was difficult.
       d jean:  i in particular have never conceived of music in such a mathematical way
       d jean:  so it was hard to make any leap from the formulas to a sound in my head to illustrate the concept
     anechoic:  well it isn't exactly music he is describing but more a different way of viewing spetral engery in an enveloped signal: grain
     anechoic:  spectral energy
   .sonorous.:  Time conceived in a dicrete terms...
     anechoic:  as a window
       d jean:  true - i could understand the concepts, but wasn't sure how that might apply in a real world sound...
       d jean:  ah
     anechoic:  a snapshot in time of a chunk of sound
   .sonorous.:  right
       d jean:  that makes a bit more sense to me then
     anechoic:  creating a finite entitiy for analysis
     anechoic:  since a piece of music would be too much data to analyze we break it down into a smaller window
     anechoic:  so we can deal with a finite collection of data
   .sonorous.:  This wave versus parcticle nature of acoustic signal
     anechoic:  the wave exists in the time domain
     anechoic:  the frequency in the freq domain
     anechoic:  or particle exists in both
     anechoic:  as a windowed (envelop) frequency
     anechoic:  and as a frequency which makes up the grain
   .sonorous.:  can we parallel this wave/particle nature of sound
   .sonorous.:  with continuous/discrete notion of Time?
     anechoic:  Roads offers a partial description here but will get deeper into windowing and analysis later in the book I think
     anechoic:  time is only one axis
     anechoic:  and can be analyzed by either continous or discrete formulas
   .sonorous.:  ok
     anechoic:  grains exist as vectors in 3D space
     anechoic:  see page 66 for more on this
     anechoic:  be back in a second...
       d jean:  sure, i am looking at pg 66 again!  :)
     anechoic:  where it says "Xenakis observed how sound particles..."
   .sonorous.:  i see...
     anechoic:  each grain exists in the freq, time and amp domains
        Caleb:  so his illustration of how this sounds is concret ph?
     anechoic:  the piece Concret PH?
        Caleb:  yes.  
        Caleb:  described on p65...
     anechoic:  Concret PH is more an intuitive approach and not really a mathematical one
        Caleb:  it seems like theory and practice were in parallel
     anechoic:  I think Analogique B is more mathemtically rigorous
     anechoic:  excuse my poor spelling
     anechoic:  pg 65 describes this a bit
        Caleb:  i'm relating this back to d jean's comment earlier about the leap from formulas to a sound for illustration...
        Caleb:  and for me, concret ph *sounds* more interesting than some of the more mathematically rigorous ones
     anechoic:  yes there are some aesthetic limitations in experimenting with mathematical/probablistic procedures for composition
 <<<   Miulew has joined   >>>
 <<<   7/20/03 2:30:08 PM    >>>
     anechoic:  page 67 the paragraph before "PRoblems with a Constant..."
       Miulew:  sorry i am late - discussion still up?
       Miulew:  (bjrn from sweden here)
     anechoic:  yes you're late and the discussion is still up...no worries...you want a transcipt of whats happened so far?
       Miulew:  would be very cool if possible
     anechoic:  I just sent it to you
     anechoic:  anyway on page 67 it says that ataxy is incomplete
     anechoic:  and possibly Analogique B is one of the examples of not being engaging for most listeners
       d jean:  due to its being an example of a theory, or explication of an analytical approach?  rather than music as expression of emotion or what have you?
        Caleb:  are many of the problems Roads mentions are 'solved' in new grain synthesis programs?
     anechoic:  you mean the frame rate < grain duration issue?
     anechoic:  top of page 68...
        Caleb:  yes, this whole section (from 'Problems with a Constant...')
     anechoic:  I guess so...I don't really play around with granular synthesis all that much so I am not an expert on these techniques...anyone else have an answer?
   .sonorous.:  me, too.
     anechoic:  I would assume that one could either use these 'problems' as a compositional device or not based on how the algorithms are implemented in any particular granular synthesis software...sorry for the fuzzy answer...
     anechoic:  I really enjoyed the part about Stockhausen's concept of time
     anechoic:  page 71 ->
     anechoic:  has anyone read his essay "...How Time Passes..."?
       Miulew:  no... i have been thinking the thought that i shall seek for it... is it online anywhere?
     anechoic:  not sure...I just read that part this morning
     anechoic:  a quick google would reveal this
       Miulew:  (finally catched up reading the transcript, thanx)
     anechoic:  you have a browser handy>?
       Miulew:  yes
     anechoic:  can you do a quick google and let us know?
     anechoic:  my browser is shut down so I don't crash and lose the transcript
       d jean:  i am not finding the actual text so far
       Miulew:   am at it
       d jean:  lots of commentary,
       Miulew:  have you been covering the rythm/pitch birder trespassing?
       Miulew:  border!
     anechoic:  yeah...this is an interesting approach to composing with impulses
       Miulew:  trespassing should maybe be exchanged to "crossing"
     anechoic:  taking a 20 second stream of pulses say at 1Hz, processing them with a filter and then compressing them into a 1 second tone 
     anechoic:  ametrical pulses that is
       Miulew:  i started to experiment a little in that direction after reading this... it was totally new thoughts for me
     anechoic:  so centering on 1Hz but randomly diverging from that
     anechoic:  ah, what was the result of your experiments?
       Miulew:  stockhausens eleven sound sources!
     anechoic:  yes...constraint based composition
       Miulew:  well... first i just started to speed up beats so i got tones... it was interesting but not so musical
       Miulew:  i guess i have to continue to build up the starting tones - i guess the filtered impulse generator is a good thing to start with
       Miulew:  nah... not starting tones - starting sounds
     anechoic:  drill 'n bass uses this technique a bit
     anechoic:  with snare rolls
     anechoic:  another anecdote is that AFX used to make sounds for remixes by taking the entire piece he was remixing and reducing it to a 1 - 2 second sound he would then use for a percussioon sound
       Miulew:  aha, very meta - - i got sounds much like motors and like spinning cats when doing these experiments anyway - that was fun
   .sonorous.:  a whole composition as an instant...
     anechoic:  interesting way to put it
       Miulew:  just the thought of rythm being part of the overall harmony is interesting, i think
     anechoic:  very much like seeing films of city traffic sped up
   .sonorous.:  yes...
   .sonorous.:  what about nancarow pieces...
     anechoic:  one starts to see/hear patterns that were too slow to perceive otheriwse
     anechoic:  nancarrow?
       d jean:  i gotta jump off -- very interesting -- chat with you all next time for Chapter 3!
       Miulew:  nancarrow is interesting - i think there is a pretty good page on him on the internet
     anechoic:  -- interjection: these book club sessions last a maximum of 2 hours...so quitting time will be 4PM Pacific Time --
       d jean:  right, sorry, i apologize --
       Miulew:  :) back to school
     anechoic:  anyone who wants to hang around afterwards and discuss is very encourage but my transpcripts only go from 2 - 4 PM
       d jean:  :)
 <<<   d jean has left   >>>
 <<<   7/20/03 3:02:41 PM    >>>
        Caleb:  german sound artist felix hess took four days of recordings and compressed it to 20 minutes...
     anechoic:  back to family on Sunday is more like it ;)
     anechoic:  we have another hour to go
     anechoic:  back to the discussion
        Caleb:  called 'air pressure fluctuations,' which you can hear
     anechoic:  and didn't someone do the opposite with a Bach or Mozart piece...take a piece and stretch it to 7 days or something?
        Caleb:  yah, 24 horus for beethoven's ninth
        Caleb:  hours
     anechoic:  ah yes that was it...
       Miulew:  yes someone did - i think it was someone from norway
       Miulew:  i was inspired by the cowell citings on top of p56 on the rythm/pitch/harmony
     anechoic:  all this is acommplished with granular techniques
     anechoic:  interesting quote
     anechoic:  so one should always be aware of the tempo and key that a piece is written in
   .sonorous.:  i cited nancarow...because it came to mind when i read 
     anechoic:  ah yes sorry to cut you off about Nancarrow
   .sonorous.:  about the persistence of vision..p.56
     anechoic:  this subject interests me very much
   .sonorous.:  me too
     anechoic:  in the process of time and editing music
       Miulew:  i am often humming when driving car - in harmony with the motor...
     anechoic:  how one can 'layer' sound by speeding up the succession of events
     anechoic:  discete events that it
       Miulew:  and the sound of motor is made up of a series of sounds (explosions)
     anechoic:  that is
     anechoic:  but the explosions overlap which also contributes to the continuum effect
   .sonorous.:  this is the interesting complementarity....
       Miulew:  true
   .sonorous.:  continuous/discrete Time
       Miulew:  that was why stockhausen had to filter and feedback the impulse generator... probably
       Miulew:  ?
     anechoic:  interesting thougth
     anechoic:  thought
     anechoic:  another way to look at it is that the impulse was pinging certain 'spaces' and he was using this as a way to derive sonorities
     anechoic:  filter resonances, reverbs etc
     anechoic:  page 70
     anechoic:  the impulse was used to set a space in vibtation in order to create a colored sound
   .sonorous.:  ..the enriched elements which the sound gains from that space...
     anechoic:  think of a preamp as waveshaper, filter as a small room, and a reverb also as a room
       Miulew:  for me this is little like hendrix not being satisfied with the undistorted/unfeedbacked guitar signal
     anechoic:  hmmm...the grain was the impulse and the filter, preamp etc was just 'convolution'
     anechoic:  sorta like that...the distortion adds harmonics which engages the listener
   .sonorous.:  ...definetely!!
        Caleb:  also like 'i am sitting in a room'
       Miulew:  lucier?
        Caleb:  lucier
     anechoic:  and they make 'modelers' which simulate the sounds of different amps
     anechoic:  for guitar playeers
     anechoic:  players
     anechoic:  luciers approach is similar
     anechoic:  by an interative process of convolving a signal
     anechoic:  causing the accentuation of certain harmonics and smeaing the overall sound
     anechoic:  smearing
     anechoic:  into a wash of sound
     anechoic:  has anyone heard Kontakte?
   .sonorous.:  ...yes... 
        Caleb:  one of my favorite pieces
     anechoic:  yeah...its been a while since I've listened to it...is it on CD?
        Caleb:  there's a cheap (compared to stockhausen verlag) edition on ecstatic peace with winant on percussion...
        Caleb:  and james tenney on piano
        Caleb:  william winant
     anechoic:  will look for it
     anechoic:  page 78 Stockhauisens quote
     anechoic:  is really interesting
     anechoic:  must have raised some eyebrows in 1957
        Caleb:  or 2003
       Miulew:  yes...!  :)i have hard find the ".... how time passes...." article, but i found...
       Miulew:  a site at http://crca.ucsd.edu/~syadegar/MasterThesis/node24.html that refers to it
     anechoic:  tone color as a result of time structure...that is very interesting to ponder
        Caleb:  this whole section on stockhausen explains his music of the time very well...
        Caleb:  the grace notes in the piano pieces acting like the tone color in the quote
        Caleb:  and connecting with the pitch-noise continuum from the top of p.77
        Caleb:  other examples of tone color <-> time structure?
   .sonorous.:  ...a sound-based versus a note-based way of making music...  
     anechoic:  the blues comes to mind but not sure of that
     anechoic:  tone color might be tied to the 12 bar structure
     anechoic:  ???
       Miulew:  old mechanical factorys must have been great for inspire in this direction
        Caleb:  (aside --  great thesis that miulew found!  self-similar synthesis on the border btw sound and music)
     anechoic:  will check that out!
     anechoic:  old mechanical factories were the basis of Futurist music
       Miulew:  marinetti and chaplin  :)
        Caleb:  sound-based vs note-based, looks like xenakis again
     anechoic:  well I see note<->sound being a continuum and not a vs. situation
     anechoic:  xenakis wrote many pieces which played with this idea
        Caleb:  yes, agreed
   .sonorous.:  ...actually that's true! I agree.
     anechoic:  creating short notes which when played as 'grains' became textures
     anechoic:  so one can think along the continuum and play in any area or range of area one wants
     anechoic:  this is what I find so liberating about the laptop as a musical instrument
       Miulew:  if you have a digital instrument maybe - not a violin or organ
       Miulew:  wiener is relating on this in quote on top of p.64 (jig)
     anechoic:  but a group of violins or organs could acheive this
       Miulew:  yes - and whas it this that stockhausen tried to do with his multiple orchestras?
     anechoic:  yeah I read that and not sure I get the cadence of his language here
       Miulew:  p75 i think...?
       Miulew:  laptop is easier, though
   .sonorous.:  why?
     anechoic:  hmmm...I think he is saying that certain rhythmic structures can only be accomplished by splitting up the work into separate orch's
   .sonorous.:  each orchestra as one instrument...
       Miulew:  the instrumentalists/conductors have limits to what they can play - which reminds me again on nancarrow
     anechoic:  yes or a laptop
       Miulew:  there is an url on him at http://news.mpr.org/features/199710/29_bakera_nancarrow/
       Miulew:  quote from that site "He wrote music that was incredibly complex - so complex, in fact, that human beings simply couldn't play it."
     anechoic:  the idea is that certain temporal structures are difficult to perform with 'one master clock'i.e., conductor
     anechoic:  yes...I like this aspecft of music
     anechoic:  aspect
   .sonorous.:  exactly
     anechoic:  Zappa also wrote parts that were extremely difficult to play - almost inhuman
       Miulew:  Was also thinking of Zappa and Boulez
 <<<   Caleb has left   >>>
 <<<   7/20/03 3:44:05 PM    >>>
     anechoic:  combining time signatures and rhythmic structures that most musicians had great difficulty 'feeling' or performing in concert
     anechoic:  yes Boulez too
       Miulew:  Also the listener has to be trained!
     anechoic:  but I like Roads clear depiction of musical time exisiting on multiple levels
   .sonorous.:  ...the true reader must be the extented author [Novalis]
     anechoic:  YES! the listener has to be trained...I am always running into the dumbing down of the public ear by pop media
     anechoic:  I like the Novalis quote! :)
   .sonorous.:  thanks
       Miulew:  like it too
     anechoic:  how does one deal with this in laptop music?
     anechoic:  without sounding didactic
       Miulew:  roads seems to point in a direction "combine the both worlds"
     anechoic:  yes this is a good point
   .sonorous.:  ...complementarity....
     anechoic:  and one that is rarely followed
     anechoic:  by laptop musicians and academics
   .sonorous.:  this ...and....and...and approach is so difficult for them.
       Miulew:  i don't know how much the young conductors today are willing to do experiments with orchestras... anyone knows?
     anechoic:  it costs money to experiment with orchs and most orchs can't afford to do this
   .sonorous.:  ...it's not the conductors' will only...
     anechoic:  Bartok and Schoenberg are as risky as any European orch get
     anechoic:  and forget the American orchs...all the money is stretched so thin that they play only the 'hits' that the rich patrons request
       Miulew:  even stravinsky might be too dangerous sometimes i think
   .sonorous.:  actually, little by little big orchestras are replaced by smaller forces, no?
     anechoic:  yes! all Vivaldi and Schubert
     anechoic:  smaller forces? describe
     anechoic:  like chamber orchs?
     anechoic:  and quartets?
   .sonorous.:  yes...
   .sonorous.:  and also the new music is written for smaller forces...I believe.
     anechoic:  yes there is a certain trend in the more minimal and less dramatic approach to instrumental music 
     anechoic:  but I think there is some really great work for orch that still needs to be heard...
     anechoic:  don't ask me what though ;)
   .sonorous.:  ...sure!!!!
     anechoic:  Schoenberg, Berg, Boulez, Cage, Feldman...]
       Miulew:  certainly, i think the new electronic music has lot to inspire new composers
       Miulew:  for orchestras
   .sonorous.:  ...they have to heep an ear...
   .sonorous.:  to keep an ear
     anechoic:  just look at Xenakis as a prime example!
       Miulew:  did anyone here the vocal version of Autecre's Gnit?
     anechoic:  he was light years ahead of most of his contemporaries
     anechoic:  yes I did
   .sonorous.:  right
     anechoic:  thoughts?
       Miulew:  kindof analog approach of a digital composed piece
       Miulew:  i think it was fun and nice to listen to
     anechoic:  yes interesting approach but not all that successful aesthetically for me 
     anechoic:  ok...so it seems like we're winding down on the book discussion
     anechoic:  anyone have any last minute comments or ideas?
   .sonorous.:  thanks very much
       Miulew:  it was a refreshing chapter as the first also was
       Miulew:  and a nice discussion! :)
     anechoic:  thank you for both participating!
       Miulew:  thank you - see you next chapter!
     anechoic:  I willannounce the next book club on the list
     anechoic:  peace